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Communism vs. Capitalism

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T-Holt
Posts: 5020 - Karma: 639
It seems like there have been a bunch of threads that have turned into giant communism vs. capitalism shit storms.

Here's a thread to contain that and let other threads, ex: tattoo thread go on with the original topic.


Delphi, Gnartron, and ButtonGwinnett can start us off.

Let's refrain from blatant hate and use actual arguments. This worked really well in my history class, so I hope this can actually be an intelligent discussion.
Dec 16 2009 10:23PM
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Elden-JR
Posts: 199 - Karma: 10

captillism

Dec 17 2009 1:00PM
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Corben
Posts: 710 - Karma: 49
Here's a test:

You have to live in one of two countries A and B.

A is a capitalist country (and has been for the past ten years)

B is a communist country (and has been for the past ten years)


You know nothing else about either country but you must pick one to live and be happy in for the rest of your life.

Which one would you pick?









Dec 17 2009 1:13PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
i would counter with the idea that what i create is mine. not yours, and especially not the bum in the gutter.

now, on the matter of people who legitimately cannot work. we have private charities to help people. and if you have ever worked with a private charity as i have. they do good work. i have no problem with supporting private charities. the reason is i choose to support them. i am not forced to help by the government.

who is more greedy, me for wanting to keep what i made and produced? or the bum who wants something for nothing? keep in mind that something did not appear out of thin air. someone made that. someone who makes something for others to dispose of it, is a slave. if i create, you take and dispose of my production on the merit of "need" then call me what i am. your slave, and the bums slave.

being charitable with something that is not yours, is the very antithesis of charity. you must first become immoral to become moral?

i say the darkest, greediest, impulse of some men is wanting something for nothing.
Dec 17 2009 1:44PM
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mike720b
Posts: 669 - Karma: 27
hahahahhahaha.
Dec 17 2009 2:19PM
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mike720b
Posts: 669 - Karma: 27
i have to go take a final and im studying communism and capitalism right now. haha
Dec 17 2009 2:26PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
Click for larger image

This one is a bit racy...

Click for larger image
Dec 17 2009 2:59PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
haha your naive
Dec 17 2009 3:17PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
oh and I would suggest you live on the streets for 5 days, with zero outside support, and say that homeless people do nothing for their money (rules would allow you to attempt to find a job)
Dec 17 2009 3:19PM
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skiminnesota
Posts: 9093 - Karma: 429
where did i say homeless people should receive zero outside support? you might not want to hear this, but i do in fact help people who are less fortunate than i am. but i do so on my own volition, i dont need a mandate from you, or anyone else to do so. i have the right to give away the property i have accumulated if i want to. i also have the right not to. (actually i dont, because taxes already confiscate some of it) 

i just want an explanation as to why it is ok for someone to expect something for nothing.

i would also like to know why it is ok for someone to be charitable with MY property. if so, i say we gather a gang, raid your home, and redistribute the wealth you have. sounds moral to me.... not.



Dec 17 2009 3:31PM
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Smuffy
Posts: 4685 - Karma: 3,407
i skipped the majority of this thread, but this is probably the most knowledgeable thing said so far. personally, i dont think humans can govern each other effectively. we need some alien race or something to set up a government and rule over us, humans are simply too greedy. end of story
Dec 17 2009 3:45PM
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superpoluha
Posts: 1986 - Karma: 10
wow, people are very opinionated... sorry for starting a shistorm
Dec 17 2009 3:47PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
communism works well in theory, actual attempts at it have failed pretty miserably.

The one for all all for one, share everything can work for a couple 100 hippies, but anything large scale is pretty much destined to fail.

Greed, lack of motivation to work harder for an inability to change your place in society.


Capitalism works pretty successfully, no system is perfect, but capitalism and free market ideals brought us to where we are. Unfortunately even capitalism will fall to greed. Now we are blaming a system that we have been moving away from for years, for the problems cause by the destination, not our starting system.



Dec 17 2009 3:51PM
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tommyp1ckles
Posts: 1337 - Karma: 55
communism never worked and never, any system with no incentive to work hard is bound to fail.

why should someone become a doctor if they can be just as successful being a janitor, yet somehow under communism thats supposed to be "fair"

laissez faire capitalism is the only truly fair system.
Dec 17 2009 3:52PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
I love how OP puts gnartrons name out there as if he knows anything about this. I knew it wouldn't take long for him to just start posting dumb pictures.

OOOOOOO che is my hero man!!!!!! Communism is cool man! OP shouldn't have even posted this thread, there is enough bullshit going around already
Dec 17 2009 3:55PM
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tommyp1ckles
Posts: 1337 - Karma: 55
how is capitalism unfair...there isn't some capitalist god that sits in his capitalist cloud chomping on cigars and choosing who gets what. in a true free market society everyone does what they choose and get what they work for.

people are only poor because they choose to remain so.
Dec 17 2009 3:57PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Actually no, Pareto Optimality is when betterment of oneself comes with the expense of others. I have studied economics for a long time and i have never heard of the "betterment of oneself profit" It's called Pareto Optimaility and it isn't necessarily true. It is a theory, not proven fact.


Dec 17 2009 4:00PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
"hanks for starting a shit storm we were just discussing the two ideologies"

Where were you discussing? Posting strings of pictures is not a discussion. Go ahead beat the dead horse again. Try to prove how communism is a great thing and show us all of those completely successful applications. I actually gave one pretty successful application in my first post.

"I have a pressure washer you can use though to get that sand out of your vag if you want" I'm not even mad. It's just annoying that you act like you have any relevant info on a topic like this, yet do nothing but post stupid pictures, and try to pump the same failed arguments

So don't be a douche and if you actually  want to try to prove anything, post an argument not some dumb pictures. And your che icon still isn't helping you out.



Dec 17 2009 4:05PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
im not advocating communism here, and im not saying that you should be forced to give your money to homeless people, i guess i interpreted the comment you made about not giving your money to the bum in the gutter wrong, my bad.
Dec 17 2009 4:07PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
Thats why the people have the power. IT would still be quite successful if we took any control ourselves.  Instead americans are so super passive/not caring/ignorant, that they will let a pretty damn successful system in a great country just erode away.

The rich can gain power in any system. Not all of the powerful rich in our countries made have made much or any of there money here in our system. Many of these families were extremely wealthy even going back through europe.
Dec 17 2009 4:09PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
Thats great, but post a time when it's been pulled off successfully. The hippies were one of few examples to actually pull that style of living of successfully. And even there, they were not involved in culture and the industrialized world. When you bring the world as it is, and try to impose communism, your almost setting yourself up to fail
Dec 17 2009 4:12PM
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superpoluha
Posts: 1986 - Karma: 10
Click for larger image
this is what i think of all this
Dec 17 2009 4:16PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
Wow your still super cool man.

I skimmed through it and it's still beating down the same bullshit. You keep talking about  how it only will work if this is right or that is right, Communism is a good idea in theory, the application of it is almost impossible. The lack of freedoms and ability to move up or down, and the motivation to work sucks, but you could argue the success of a communist society.

The problem is you don't even have an example of a successfully run communist society, its one fail after another. And you can keep arguing that they didn't follow marx's plans 100% which even if shown true doesn't rule out the fact that there are many flaws in the application of communism. Especially in an advanced world, which is still growing.

But of course take the high road and stick to being a douche
Dec 17 2009 4:20PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Something for nothing?

Do you know what inheritance is? Something for nothing. This is the entire reason capitalists stay rich. Sure some are able to move up with hard work from the lower class (like my dad), but they are extremely few and far between. Inheritance is just the means of old exploited labor accrued in a timely fashion and washed hands when passed down. Sure it's great for people to provide for their families but how is that any different than a free handout to a homeless guy?

You already said, you enjoy your computer and you enjoy all your nice things because you are in the minority of people that benefit from capitalism. Hence, someone in Ghana thinks differently about life and when Communism replaced the feudally outdated economic system they didn't complain to finally get an education and shelter.

I'm sorry you think that wages are determined by the market. You are about 50 years too late. The market doesn't decide wages. There are so many ways to refute this. Some terms you may want to learn...efficiency wages, surplus labor, re-switching effect. Read Paul Sraffa's Productions of commodities by means of commodities you may just learn something about economics.

I don't know how to put this in simplistic terms, but if wages were determined by the market you would be operating at full employment. Since it is obvious there are periods of structural unemployment and not everyone is voluntary unemployed. Keynes himself made this grave mistake in saying the market determines wage and that people are unemployed voluntarily. His entire life's work contradicts his own thoughts on employment. Rather sad really. There are certain micro-aspects at which a free market will determine an equilibrium, however wages, social goods, and anything on a macroeconomic level is not one of them.

With that said, I have seen some good posts and some horribly skewed visions of economics. For people saying that greed is human nature, I would argue against that. Greed in terms of survival is embodied in human nature, sure. We see it in the animal kingdom. However, the vast accumulation of capital that you guys are referring to (why communism won't work) is monetary greed. This is NOT human nature, rather it has been instilled in us by socio-economic means. Hence, fetishism of commodities. This is what capitalism evolves people into. Commodities are the most important thing in capitalism, thus as subsistence is provided (like in the US) the accumulation of commodities is devised as the most important.

The problem is not a lot of people in here can conceptualize any sort of form of communism. However, it is quite obvious a lot of people saying that capitalism should be the only economic system fail to recognize the true intentions/implications of communism. Now I don't have the time or patience to explain this so grab a book.
Dec 17 2009 4:32PM
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parkdizzle
Posts: 103 - Karma: 10
people that work the hardest deserve more money.  the better you are at something the more money you should get.  this is where communism fails in my humble opinion.
Dec 17 2009 4:34PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
You pretty much start it off by posting stupid pics on every thread. Here was no exception. Glad he at least dropped a dope picture to help cap this shitty thread off
Dec 17 2009 4:40PM
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JibbaTheHutt
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 1,597

both have there drawbacks

i feelthat communism takes away the passion to strive for succes

Dec 17 2009 4:46PM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
I completely understand where you are coming from, and there is no "correct" answer to this, however, in my personal beliefs I find that everything I am working so hard for, is specifically in the interest and future benefit of my children. I work hard and accrue as much money as I can to both provide as best I can for them and to leave hopefully a large sum of money for my children when I kick the bucket. If my inheritance where to simply vanish and be given to the government, I would have zero incentive to keep working hard past the point where I have accumulated enough money for myself to live comfortably. I'm not going to go out and work my ass off for money that I will never use, essentially working for free because the money will all go back to the government. That is just my personal take though.
Dec 17 2009 4:51PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
I think you are failing to see what capitalism has REALLY done in this matter. Rich white boy (skiminnesota) buys computer. Computer was made in china, from parts from all around asia, and engineered in america and japan. The operating system was made from some college drop out, that now makes millions because of its popularity. The store that rich white boy got his computer from, can now pay an employees salary because of the sale. And finally, when rich white boy's computer fails, he calls a third world country (mainly india) for tech support.
Dec 17 2009 4:53PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
That doesn't really reflect capitalism. We sold out our money supply to a private banking cartel, the "federal" reserve. They have pretty quickly destroyed our economy. To actually produce anything in america is expensive. Even beyond child labor laws and that argument.

If we had a good economy, and stuck to capitalism, we would be in much better shape today.
Dec 17 2009 4:59PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Very very nice post.

Essentially, what unregulated capitalism does is create this small percentage of wealth at the top and this is why there are regulations in place. Granted the percentage will fluctuate as business cycles do, but it still will leave a very significant class difference.

Awesome points, capitalism has brought about the fastest growth ever recorded in history and there is no denying that. It maximizes the potential for resources and does indeed allocate certain duties to make production ten fold that of any other system. However, it is like any other class system in which you have subservience.
Dec 17 2009 4:59PM
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Norred
Posts: 3520 - Karma: 13
Countries do not become industrialized under communism.  For  your "theory" to be accurate, they must first industrialize under a free market system, then shift toward socialism (which would stifle growth). 



Wait that sounds familiar...
Dec 17 2009 5:05PM
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Nathn
Posts: 2408 - Karma: 63
Ok so I haven't read any of the posts but this is just what I have to say. I think that there should be one giant ass communist country that people can go to if they feel that they would like communism, but they would have to apply to get in or some shit. And to make sure no douchebag comes in and wrecks it, there should be an unbiased kinda higher power other country Illuminati esque group that gets rid of the douchebags. In that case, communism would be perfect for those who like communism, but those who cherish freedom and creativity (me included) could live peacefully where they want.


Of course this would never happen it would just make things better.
Dec 17 2009 5:06PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
I think you are failing to see my point. Who is to say communism wouldn't bring that? Or socialism? OR a dictatorship of the proletariat. You are talking about technological advancement which happens in any economic system. Granted capitalism has had the most technological innovation, that is not to say that it is the sole responsibility for these or that it couldn't be replaced and have these things happen.

So no, Capitalism isn't doing all this.
Dec 17 2009 5:07PM
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Norred
Posts: 3520 - Karma: 13
[IMG]http://www.lifelibertyetc.com/images/Products/9070c5b2-d4ca-4344-9f81-c0c20a200975.jpg[img\]
Dec 17 2009 5:08PM
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Norred
Posts: 3520 - Karma: 13
Click for larger image
Dec 17 2009 5:09PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
Unfortunately they have been over regulating, that is where the real problems came from. If we actually had some sort of a decent economy still, there would be more jobs, people would have more money. The cost of living to thew average income wouldn't be such a growing gap.

With our economy this shot, and our policies still going ion the wrong way, you can't blame it all on the system. It's more the bad policies of our gov, and the lack of the people keeping that in check.

Think about it, more jobs, and not getting raped by taxes and inflation at every point, our country would actually still be doing quite well.
Dec 17 2009 5:09PM
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ElbridgeGerry
Posts: 5902 - Karma: -27
Capitalism has done that though, that's the thing. Name one massively innovative thing that has come out of a communist country in the last...25 years.
Dec 17 2009 5:10PM
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Norred
Posts: 3520 - Karma: 13
chop sticks?
Dec 17 2009 5:13PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
I disagree completely.

There is no way there is too much regulation. I don't know where you are getting this from, but after Reagan we are seeing super low taxes right now marginally speaking (especially the wealthiest brackets). Not to mention the wealth gap is at the biggest it has ever been.

What you have to realize is that the situation we are in now has to do with externalities. I am not sure where you are getting your information, but our economy is experiencing a shrinkage because of fundamental imbalances in the world economy (largely anyway). It is just an allocation of resources like any capitalistic model.

Real wage isn't going up because of deregulation and less union participation. Bargaining power is shot. More jobs aren't going to come with policies or internal affairs.
Dec 17 2009 5:16PM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
What did they eat with before 1984?
Dec 17 2009 5:16PM
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-=koLLac=-
Posts: 4122 - Karma: 11
you said it right there...in a true capitalist society...which we unfortunately don't have. I can tell you that capitalism is a lot "fairer" to the kennedy's (just an example) than it is to you or I. And it is still a shit-ton fairer to me than it is to some poor kid whose parents don't live in a good school district and who will never go to college
Dec 17 2009 5:17PM
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Norred
Posts: 3520 - Karma: 13
exactly.
Dec 17 2009 5:18PM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
Haha oh shit!
Dec 17 2009 5:19PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
So you completely disagree that our economic problems are the direct or in anyway a result of printing off ridiculous amounts of money, bailing the gold standard, devaluing the USD almost entirely, and causing massive inflation that has yet to even peak? Then the fed playing with interest rates, which help to get tons of people into houses they couldn't afford.The fact that the fed isn't even a real government organization in any way.

If your economy and currency are beat, that isn't going to help create jobs. And even for those that have jobs, massive inflation makes it pretty hard to support yourself these days.


Our governmental policies specifically caused the economic situation we are seeing now. And We just did it again. Instead of going through the recession and rebuilding after, we bailed out failing companies and printed more money, which will cause even more inflation. The recession was the cure, not the problem. The policies of our gov were the problem.

It's a circle of bullshit logic. How can any system succeed when it's economy is going downhill that fast.
Dec 17 2009 5:34PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
The fed is a quasi institution that loses more and more power over the economy every day. Yes some of these things do have an effect. There is no way you can say these are the cause of the current crisis. That would be insane. Refer to my post about global imbalances. These are the main causes. Gold standard is not plausible in economies the size of ours today. De facto currency does make sense but when pegged an manipulated can do some scary things, but no a gold standard doesn't make sense.

No they didn't. Where are you getting this information? Bubbles don't happen strictly because of government policy. You are extremely pessimistic about the government and it is really hurting your ability to see what the financial crisis boils down to. You can even argue that DE-regulation has played a huge impact in unemployment.

For instance, hoarding is happening in which savings is increased because people with money are not investing. This is a classic example of leakages in an economy. Again, this leads to global imbalances, not policies of the government. I suggest you do more research on this. Saying the government policies specifically caused the economic situation is nowhere near correct. Some exacerbated but no, they did not cause it.
Dec 17 2009 5:41PM
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blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
..moot?

but I agree with you
Dec 17 2009 5:43PM
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Norred
Posts: 3520 - Karma: 13
That "poor kid" has the choice to work hard through school and go to college.  I know plenty of people including myself who's parents didn't pay for their college.  Sure you'll have to pay back loans, but if you work hard you'll get through it and get a good job and live a successful life. I'm sick of the "life's not fair" argument.  People are poor for a reason and it's called lack of motivation. Who cares of there are people like the Kennedys.  Sure they've got it made, but they're not stopping you from getting your piece of the pie.
Dec 17 2009 5:44PM
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A.Eberhard
Posts: 4426 - Karma: 415
Communism doesn't work because there is always the factor of human greed, North Korea would be a living example. Yes it does work in China ,but china has a lot of capitalism in the country also. Now when capitalism is not monitored such as in the U.S big problems can happen ( the recession ) , here capitalism was just never looked at and people took advantage this making the rich richer and the poor poorer. Both have their downfalls there is no perfect system so it is impossible to pick a better system.
Dec 17 2009 5:50PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,510
Yes there is a percentage that can escape being poor. To say that people are poor because of a lack of motivation is completely unrealistic.
Dec 17 2009 5:56PM
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theabortionator
Posts: 51263 - Karma: 157,443
The fed loses power over the economy every day? Yet it's still printing off money, and loaning it to us at interest. Of course that can't hurt the economy at all.

"Gold standard is not plausible in economies the size of ours today" Are you serious? I'll give you a chance to explain yourself on that one. Because that might be the most ignorant thing I've heard in a long time. The lack of a gold standard is the reason why your USD and my USD are worth very little of what they were 100 years ago. Inflation is a killer in economies, and your making it seem like it's not even bad?

"but no a gold standard doesn't make sense" you said it again so i guess it really is your view. Gold standard makes perfect sense. Precious metal hold it's value, it fluctuates slighty but it is always worth something. Gold has been money all over the world through all sorts of time periods and cultures.

If the gold standard was still in place you wouldn't be be paying the insane inflation based prices today for commodities.

"Bubbles don't happen strictly because of government policy." No but most of the bubbles we've seen have been cause by their policies. Especially the fed. And you can use it as an accurate forecasting tool for the future of the economy. When all mainstream news experts had panels of "experts" talking about the success of the economy, and how great the financials were to invest in, there were a few people who were saying the exact opposite. That we were in a recession heading for a depression, and the financials were about the worst thing to invest in. They talked about the housing bubble, about fannie and freddie mac. This was all a few years before shit hit the fan.

And they were spot on with their predictions. But that doesn't count for anything these days, it hasn't stopped anyone from believing everything fox,cnn, or msnbc tells them as absolute truth.

The policies caused the housing market bubble, they caused the recession, they've cause bubble after bubble, and to ignore that is ignorant.


I can't even believe what you said about the gold standard. nothing backs up your views on that. Country after country through history, that has tried to print money to stabilize the economy has failed.

It's all fun and gamed till you pull a trillion dollar bill out of your pocket to buy a loaf of bread
Dec 17 2009 5:59PM
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