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March, 2024

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Healthcare Rationing

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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
http://www.wizbangblog.com/content/2009/07/26/ezekiel-emanuel-deny-coverage-to-elderly-and-disabled-for-the-greater-good.php

If that article isn't motivation enough to reject socialized medicine than I don't know what is.
Aug 8 2009 12:20PM
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kepler.
Posts: 8761 - Karma: 139
You really like political threads don't you?

That Doc needs to remember the Hippocratic oath he took a long time ago.
Aug 8 2009 12:27PM
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charmander
Posts: 10636 - Karma: 372
anyone who wants socialized medicine is fuckin nuts
Aug 8 2009 12:30PM
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sk1er
Posts: 614 - Karma: 10
the article tries to scare people into thinking they wont be able to have their own private health care by saying private health care providers will be driven out of bussiness. How? The article clearly describes a niche marcket which they can exploit (people with demensia and other ailments the gov wont treat). The point is you can still seek your own private health care option. There will merly be a government option. Everyone doesnt have to take it.

I dont see how private health companies will be driven out of business.
Aug 8 2009 12:30PM
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shawnrohrbach
Posts: 56 - Karma: 10
yacht, you and that article are full of shit. Are you a stooge plant for the insurance companies?  A woman I know went to a town hall meeting and when the douche bag stooges stood up to shout down her congressman, she got up and challenged three of the men outside for a fist fight and the pussies just shouted louder and never did take her up on the fight.
Aug 8 2009 12:37PM
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prontocuts.com
Posts: 5244 - Karma: 42
lyke omg are u sending that to flag@whitehouse.gov





Im fed up with this shit, I cant even watch the news anymore. Once I get my degree I think Im out of here. Or atleast I am going to live in the mountains and hide from the government and have offshore bank accounts.



hope they arent reading this
Aug 8 2009 12:37PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
It is pretty basic economics. A government run insurance plan doesn't have to make money, and is not beholden to investors. It can even loose billions of dollars like other government run entities like Frannie Mae and Freddie Mac and still not go bankrupt. On the flip side if a private insurance company lost money like that they would go bankrupt and out of business. This means that the government run plan can participate in predatory pricing driving their prices down to levels that will loose the program billions but also make it so private insurance firms could never match those low low prices because they at least have to break even to stay in business. Now that the governments prices are at an astronomically low level they will drive 97% of private plans out of business.

You may think "oh well lower prices are good so who cares" but the governments lower prices for its plan will result in even larger deficits than we have now, and our federal budget deficit was the largest it have been in our history at $1.5 Trillion which is 13% of our GDP, we don't want these numbers getting higher.  
Aug 8 2009 12:39PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
How is it full of shit. I mean you could just read Emanuel's quotes and not the rest of the article and it's still wrong.

And I wish I was getting paid for this, that would be sweet.

PS. The reason for all the political threads is that it's summer and I don't work a ton (30 hrs. a week) and I'm bored because there's no school or skiing to focus on (and not the most partying either) so I just sit around and read a ton of articles and books about politics and economics and then post on NS.
Aug 8 2009 12:42PM
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cjgncjgn
Posts: 3023 - Karma: 21
you americans are so funny.

socialized medice does work, in countries that actually care to take care of themselves. I LOVE my canadian healthcare, i wouldnt trade it for anything.

That being said, we can afford it because our populous is not massively obese... the costs to deliver equivalent care to the USA as in Canada would be astronomical.

its just sad that the USA is to ignorant to realize that its time is over.

You are Britain post WWII, you will always remain a power, but your hardly a superpower when your people cant afford to go to the doctor and your economy is in shambles.

But this rationing shit and the myths about the canadian system are bullshit, my grandfather (80) just went in for a skin cancer operation, my grandmother had knee replacement surgery, both were "seniors" at the time and both recieved excellent care.
Aug 8 2009 12:44PM
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sk1er
Posts: 614 - Karma: 10
People who can afford better health care are still going to keep their private plans. THis will merely be an option for those that cant.

and about obamas plan not paying for certain disabilities. Doesnt the private sector already do that? at least obamas plan gives about 30,000 a month.
Aug 8 2009 12:48PM
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jstan4
Posts: 177 - Karma: 46
Actually this is not true. Anyway, if you knew anything about "basic economics" you would know that trying to balance the budget in a recession is a disastrous idea.
Okay so having read the article I would like to point out that Dr. Emanuel's' paper was written in 1996, before he actually held any position to influence policy. Thus, when one publishes a paper or makes a speech as an academic they are theorizing and expounding on a hypothetical. In addition, neither H.R. 3200 nor H.R. 676 mention anything about denying healthcare to the old aged or mentally incapacitated.

Aug 8 2009 12:53PM
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doublexl
Posts: 8407 - Karma: 26
If this thread isn't motivation enough to reject politics threads than I don't know what is.
Aug 8 2009 2:35PM
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t3hb055
Posts: 813 - Karma: 15
Agreed, people just get so into this shit. I don't think writing about it on a forum is going to do shit.
Aug 8 2009 2:38PM
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sk1er
Posts: 614 - Karma: 10
it raises awarness. And for some it prompts further research and education on issues
Aug 8 2009 2:50PM
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t3hb055
Posts: 813 - Karma: 15
True, yet at the same time do you expect anything to be done by anyone on these forums? I mean yes they could do something about it in their home towns. But as for now this is just a discussion that serves no point but to let others know how they feel on the matter.
Aug 8 2009 2:52PM
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FMeissner
Posts: 490 - Karma: 85
Stop being a self-righteous dick.
Aug 8 2009 3:20PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
that article is fucking pathetic. The quotation clearly shows that he is in favor of decreased care (read palliative care) for elderly patients with dementia, but FOR ensuring that children with mental disabilities can learn to read and reason.

This is hardly a new idea, the amount of money spent on keeping terminally ill and low functioning elderly people alive is extremely disproportionate when there are so many other chronically underfunded areas of health care. Not to sound callous, but often families keep their parents alive at all costs even when they are in extreme pain and prolonging life is an act of cruelty. My mom has worked as a visiting nurse practitioner for  low income geriatric (elderly) patients for the past twenty years, and frequently comments on the fact that hospice type programs (i.e. what Dr emmanuel is discussing) are the most humane AND cost-effective options. We need to focus on allowing the elderly to die painlessly and gracefully instead of turning their final days into massively expensive and painful battles against the inevitable.

As for children, re-read the quote. He is clearly arguing to allocate more resources to enable children with  disabilities to become high-functioning members of society. The fact that the entire premise of the article is based on the author's misreading of a quote makes me wonder if the disabilities her child suffers  from are actually genetic.


YACHT, I'd love to hear your response to this.

Aug 8 2009 5:04PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
For those that don't want to read, or find the quote here you go. Emanuel is clearly advocating for this woman's disabled child but she doesn't have the reading comprehension to understand it.

"An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."
Aug 8 2009 5:16PM
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charmander
Posts: 10636 - Karma: 372
ok, im not gonna get into this with you too much, but canadian healthcarre is pretty shitty. american healthcare is really damn good, thats why rich canadians come HERE because they can choose to pay for a private doctor and whatnot.

and not a superpower? lolwut? the fuck is canada doing? the fuck has canada ever done? you guys don'tt really matter that much, when russia invades you guys, whose gonna save your ass? US.

i'm sick of people bitching about the usa when we've pulled them out of the fire multiple times, but no, were all idiots. obviously.
Aug 8 2009 5:29PM
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kepler.
Posts: 8761 - Karma: 139
Badmouthing your country is the new patriotism, didn't you hear?
Aug 8 2009 5:35PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both. We both value too much the freedom of opinion sanctioned by our Constitution, not to cherish its exercise even where in opposition to ourselves" -Thomas jefferson
Yeah, none of our founders believed in the value of debate or cynicism. This country was founded on unflagging, mindless patriotism regardless of the situation, thats totally why we rebelled against great britain, we were just too enthusiastic.

Aug 8 2009 5:57PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I'm not going to lie,  that article does suck balls. They interpret his quotes wrong,  but it isn't the article that concerns me it's the quotes.

Here is the one that is the most frightening.

"Substantively, it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity-those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed"

That means if you can not be a functioning member of the polity then you are not guaranteed the medical care that you need. Any  senior citizen with any life threatening disease could be place in this group, or those with mental retardation or sever injuries which put them in a dis functioning state. Emmanuel thinks that they should not be  guaranteed the care that they need because they cannot contribute in the way he thinks they should. There is a word for this and it's called Eugenics and I think Mr. Emmanuel should know best what can happen when Eugenics becomes government policy (think the Third Reich).  

I'm not against people not having hospice care and dying peacefully as opposed to being kept alive at great costs. But it should be up to themselves and their families to decide what they want, not some government bureaucrat who is looking to cut costs. 
Aug 8 2009 6:02PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
That is a great quote, and I think it's perfect for the health care debate that is going on know. The president and those pushing these reforms refuse to listen to other peoples opinions and view points and so the right is turning what should be a civil debate into mob like shouting.

It's wrong that Obama is so close minded about his policy and that the right is so aggressive in its debating tactics. 
Aug 8 2009 6:06PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
bump?
Aug 8 2009 8:44PM
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jstan4
Posts: 177 - Karma: 46
you, my subtle neo-con friend, are forgetting about what the debate is. no one is arguing that the quality of healthcare is poor in this country, the reform is aimed at overhauling healthcare INSURANCE. healthcare = good, insurance coverage = poor. poor = 47 million americans under or uninsured. poor = rising costs in insurance premiums and larger deductibles. poor = 70% of healthcare insurance cost going toward marketing and administration. poor especially = the lack of education and massive ignorance in the US as to what Americans are currently receiving and what is involved in insurance coverage (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/opinion/31krugman.html >>read the first paragraph at least).

With the Russian invasion, Putin isn't rearing his ugly head just yet, so Canada is safe (although Palin, who is the last line of defense, is no longer in Alaska).

Third, I agree with whomever said debate is good, because it is. A reasoned, national conversation is exactly what we need at this point.
Aug 8 2009 9:04PM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
well canadian health care isnt really that shitty, for the most part you can recieve the same kind of care in Canada as you would in the US, just waiting times may be longer, thus RICH canadians can get care in the states fast. What we dont have in Canada, i will admit, is people dying because they dont have health insurance or are forced to pay from their own pocket for cancer treatment. The United States is still a superpower but that cant last forever when your neighbor refuses to pay a little extra in taxes so you dont have to die, pretty pathetic.
How many times has the US pulled Canada out of the fire?
Aug 8 2009 11:13PM
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charmander
Posts: 10636 - Karma: 372
for people saying we have 50 million people uninsured

rough estimates here

id say at least 20 million illegal immigrants, who shouldnt be insured anyway

maybe 20 million young people that are healthy and dont want insurance

leaving only 10 million people uninsured

we probably have at least 10 million people not even paying taxes right now, so they wouldnt be buying into this system anyway
Aug 8 2009 11:20PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
We tried to free you guys from the British in the War of 1812, but if that would have happened then  there probably wouldn't be a Canada just a way bigger US.
Aug 8 2009 11:20PM
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Pee_and_Ski
Posts: 1869 - Karma: 57

yesterday on fox they were comparing obamas health care to the nazis, i didnt get hoe they could but if thet is true what the doc said and if the source is good that is yugenitics(sp) aka the holocost

Aug 8 2009 11:23PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I really wouldn't compare Obama's plan directly with NAZIism because they are certainly not the same thing, but a Single payer system would support Eugenics to some degree (especially if one of the people running it is Mr. Emmanuel) and one of the most famous Eugenicists in history is Adolf Hitler. There were actually many Eugenisists in America at that time as well because it was a quite popular theory in the 20's  and 30's but none of them were able to gain the amount of power that Hitler did which is why he is equated with the practice more often than anyone else.

Oh and just a tip if your using the enhanced Text Box for replies it has a built in spell check that will put red lines under mispelled words and all you need to do to find the correct spelling is to right click on the underlined word.
Aug 8 2009 11:38PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Also the holocaust was certainly not just about killing jews it was about killing all of those who were genetically inferior to the Aryans (therefore not being able to properly contribute to the Aryan polity, in the words of Mr. Emmanuel) like the disabled or homosexuals. You don't have to be an anti-semite to be in favor of mass exterminations, clearly the state of Israel has systematically murdered many many palestinians in the last 60 years.
Aug 8 2009 11:42PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
what source do you have that trumps the WHO?

According to whom Canada ranks 30th while the USA ranks 37th.  If you want to only talk about top percentile, you can probably get away with saying that the US health system is very good, however on the whole, it fails the majority of people.

Regardless of what you try to claim, how can you base your analysis of the US health care on how well it takes care of the wealthy alone, disregarding both the poor, and the middle class?

If you want to claim the US health care is a world leader, you can say, honestly, it is the worlds most expensive system, but you cannot say it is not the best -- we do not have the healthiest population, we do not have the lowest infant mortality rate, we do not have the longest life expectancy.



As for other things you need to educate yourself about; in our country, if you show up to an emergency room and you do not have any money, the doctors will take care of you. The tax payers pay for each emergency room visit for uninsured patients. Now whether illegals deserve to have insurance payed by tax payers or not is one thing, but to not recognize that you'll pay for the $500 minimum ER bill if you don't give illegals insurance... while providing insurance can reduce the number of ER visits and provide for a fundamental shift in health care (reactionary to preventative) is being an idiot, as you'd say.

(just as a tangent, worth noting, I've been forced to go to the ER by my HMO to receive an ace bandage -- that would be a $500 ace bandage, to you the tax payer, had I been uninsured)


as for socialized medicine, the VA and medicare/aid are both government funded. we've had them for more than 60 years
Aug 9 2009 12:09AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
* since the 60s (nearly 50 years)
Aug 9 2009 12:10AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I have said this so many times and I'll say it again, why should the taxpayer be forced to pay for other people to have the luxury (yes luxury) to use the ER when they themselves can't pay for it? Rapid medical care like that received in the ER is extremely expensive to operate and providing that services for free for anyone to use has made waiting times go way up in ER's in America and has forced paying customers of hospitals and taxpayers to swallow the cost to the hospital for this LUXURY!

I also don't trust those WHO stats because the numbers used to make those stats are taken from each government about their own systems not from outside analysis. Therefore countries like cuba can say they have a lower infant mortality rate than the US but only because they don't measure the statistic of infant deaths until after infants are 6 months old.  Not to mention the practice of aborting most infants who will be thought to be a burden to the system.

And as for the VA it may have been around for 50 years but so what so has the communist government of China.... Some VA hospitals are literally falling apart and most are in poor condition, many vets don't seek treatment at these facilities and opt for private treatment instead. Medicare/aid is the largest unfunded mandate ever, that means the government has promised billions of dollars that it doesn't have, both of these programs are slowly bankrupting the Federal Gov, even Obama understands the deep flaws in these programs.
Aug 9 2009 12:25AM
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charmander
Posts: 10636 - Karma: 372
i know this, my mom's a nurse, you get more than just free er, you also get free stays,and basically 100% free care.

Aug 9 2009 12:33AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Oh man I just found this great quote and it made me think of your quote

"“We are created by ideology; ideas are our only connection. And because today we have discarded the free marketplace of ideas and have polarized ourselves into two equally insane ideologies … we are ripe for that next step, to take preventive action to keep the other side from seizing power and oppressing our side.”

Orson Scott Card on America
Aug 9 2009 1:05AM
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cjgncjgn
Posts: 3023 - Karma: 21
okay ill just shoot a few points over, again your education system has gotten so poor that its hard for you to grasp.

# 1 - I am a "rich" Canadian, I've had major surgerys, never once had anything close to an unreasonable wait time or considered going to the USA. I have the financial flexibility to do so. Those Canadians that do this, generally require surgery to fit a business schedule, our public healthcare does not give a fuck about your schedule, and nor should it. They are running scare tactic ad's in the USA, misrepresenting Canadian care.

#2 - Rationing - DOES NOT HAPPEN. My grandfather a man well into his 80's had bypass surgery, his wait time? less than 1 week.

#3- Russia is not very likely to invade Canada at all. Plus you seem to forget Canada and USA fought a war, which we won. (1812) Burned your whitehouse to the ground.

# 4 NEVER said not a superpower, said less a superpower, much like Britain which was once the most powerful country in the world. Still a superpower, just not THE superpower.

#5 I'm not bitching, I love watching your politics unfold and be seperate from it, its fun to watch :)


Aug 9 2009 3:57AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
"okay ill just shoot a few points over, again your education system has gotten so poor that its hard for you to grasp."

"#3- Russia is not very likely to invade Canada at all. Plus you seem to forget Canada and USA fought a war, which we won. (1812) Burned your whitehouse to the ground."

These two things are really funny. Mostly because Canada didn't exist as a nation in 1812 and it was the English who we fought against. Are you insinuating that England still controls Canada, or is your country still so enamored with the Queen Mum that you forget sometimes that they let you kids be independent? Also the British didn't win the war it was fought to a virtual stand still ending in a treaty where the British left and nothing really happened. But I guess you could take pride in the fact that the British fought a war that they used the land you know live in as a base of operations and were then fought to a stand still and withdrew?

Really don't call people dumb and then say things that are patently false, it makes you a jackass.

Aug 9 2009 4:17AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Also I don't really care if rationing DOES NOT HAPPEN in Canada I'm concerned about the adviser to Americas president suggesting that rationing SHOULD happen here. This isn't about Canada or your system to me,  it's about what's happening in my country right now.
Aug 9 2009 4:20AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
bah, you don't get free ER, or free health care, you get a paradigm shift from reactionary care to preventative care, where we start becoming a healthy nation, where health care is something that keeps you from being sick. Opposed to what we have now, where health care is something that takes care of you after things have already gotten really bad.

the point is that instead of taking care of people through costly ER visits, and waiting until health problems develop into a crisis, and before the problem turns into a chronic condition; example being heart disease and diabetes, two easily preventable conditions, that when neglected in their early stages develop into serious conditions. Simply put, it costs so much more to pay for the ER visit for a heart attack and all the recovery steps necessary post-op than it would to provide the same individual a doctor for regular checkups, to catch high cholesterol and encourage healthy behavior.



Aug 9 2009 9:33AM
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jstan4
Posts: 177 - Karma: 46
OK clearly you shouldn't even be involved in this conversation. "20 million young people that are healthy and dont want insurance" ????? Are you an idiot? Do you even know how insurance works? It doesn't make a difference wether or not they are healthy, if they get hurt or develop something they will want it. You don't just want insurance when you need it, the point of insurance is like a preemptive strike against disaster.
And when you say 10 million people not paying taxes, i don't even know what to make of that. You must live somewhere very isolated.
Aug 9 2009 9:40AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
how is it a luxury again?  To me a luxury isn't essential to life, whereas someone visiting the ER, the visit, being a matter of life or death, seems quite necessary.

now maybe you think that life is something that is a privilidge only to be had by the rich, in which case i could understand your position, albeit a cold and heartless, completely un-american position, but still somewhat tenable.

but because we live in america, and one of our core values is that all people are to have the ability to pursue life, liberty and happiness, it seems only fair to provide everyone emergency care when the time arises. You cannot alienate this right by a means of payment.

Still, this isn't a new policy by any stretch.  So if you think that it'll be overturned, well you're living in a horrible fantasy nightmare world devoid of any decent morals.
Aug 9 2009 9:47AM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
canada does more for the US than an ignorant fool like you could ever realize.
Aug 9 2009 10:58AM
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charmander
Posts: 10636 - Karma: 372
such as...

give examples if you're gonna call him out
Aug 9 2009 11:02AM
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dbstar
Posts: 2038 - Karma: 20
such as provide them with forces in afghanistan, more forces than any other nation, Canada and the United States have the largest trade agreement in the world, which supports 5.2 million american jobs, we provide you with a huge amounts of oil, and soon will be their to provide you with fresh water. Hydroelectric dams in Quebec provide electricity to the northeast of the US. The list could go on and on, and i am fully aware of how much the US does for Canada as well.
Aug 9 2009 11:26AM
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OhMyBosh
Posts: 5056 - Karma: 170
How fucking ignorant can everyone in America possibly be?

"Socialized" healthcare works you dumbasses. Just look at most countries in western Europe, or Scandinavia, or Canada, all of which are considered better places to live than the US.
You can very easily have private and public healthcare at the same time with no issues. People who can afford private healthcare will use it, people who cant will use public healthcare. Works fine in England.
Aug 9 2009 11:44AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Dude wo wo wo I love Canada really great place. I was just calling that kid out on being an idiot. But really

CANADA=AWESOME always. I mean I wouldn't go there to get medical treatment but I would def go there for any other reason
Aug 9 2009 12:30PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
It's a luxury because of it's cost and how difficult it is to provide. Doctors (especially trauma doctors) are highly specialized and trained individuals and their time and expertise costs a lot of money. Also much of the equipment used represents massive capital investments.

My :"horrible fantasy nightmare" would be a place where people are responsible for themselves and take actions along those lines like making the decision to save money for health costs and living healthier day to day instead of knowing that they can do whatever they please and spend their money on things they don't need like T.V. and cable and then expect others to pay when they get sick. Clearly I am all for helping those most disadvantaged in society who cannot help themselves like children or the mentally ill, but I have little pity for a person whose life is full of bad decisions and wrong choices who now expects me to pay for it when they have some lung disease from smoking their entire lives.
Aug 9 2009 12:36PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
because 100% of people who go to the ER are at fault for the injuries they've sustained right?

how do you qualify someones right to life by means of how much money they have? By your standard, if someone is poor they don't deserve to live. What is the difference between you and a poor person, when you both get hit by a bus, why should the doctor take care of you and not the poor person? Neither of you are at fault, it's not by your own life choices that you've landed in the circumstances you're in.


Aug 9 2009 12:58PM
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shawnrohrbach
Posts: 56 - Karma: 10
Yacht, I will laugh my ass off the day you need trauma care and you find out your insurance company, who has been fleecing money out of you wallet for years, won't pay and you lose your house because the hospital wants their tens of thousands of dollars to pay for the expensive doctor and equipment that saved your life.  Please read this book:
How to make insurance companies pay your claims & what to do if they don't  By William M. Shernoff, Ralph Nader

Then come back here and see if you still want to spew this crap about how wonderful private insurance companies are.

Aug 9 2009 1:06PM
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Download-My-Apps
Posts: 5069 - Karma: 1,017
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
Aug 9 2009 1:33PM
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