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Preventative Knee braces

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ESAND
Posts: 1607 - Karma: 744
The other thread about braces got me thinking, what is everyones views on preventative knee braces? That is to say my knees are fine never been fucked up however acl/mcl tears seem to be the most common injury to skiers and are fairly serious. As much as  I am going to try to avoid hurting my knees it looks like a serious tear is pretty much inevitable for a serious skier. So with that said assuming price is no object (insurance would pay all but an insignificant copay), would you wear knee braces on healthy knees as a way of preventing injury, even if it only worked 15% of the times.
Sep 21 2007 2:23PM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
no. read medical studies on them. there's not evidence to indicate even a 15% chance that a knee brace will prevent a tear. they're a bunch of bullshit.
Sep 21 2007 4:03PM
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ESAND
Posts: 1607 - Karma: 744
ok thanks. any other opinions?
Sep 21 2007 4:14PM
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buchanan.
Posts: 1911 - Karma: 156
if they worked, wich apparently they dont ^^ id probly wear on in the future, but im good for right now
Sep 21 2007 4:20PM
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pbandj
Posts: 5610 - Karma: 28
i've fucked my knee up and i still don't wear one, they don't do shit except for get itchy and in the way
Sep 21 2007 4:26PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 911
I once heard that the psychological benefit of wearing a knee brace is a good thing if you are so inclined that it will help. But in a traumatic fall, it will do nothing.  BTW I skied for 30 years, never having a knee problem until I went to catch a kid in a lift line that was going to bowl everyone over, I went over and kapow! there went the ACL in a slow twisting motion. 
Sep 21 2007 4:31PM
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Upgrayedd
Posts: 620 - Karma: 25
Despite having never had a knee injury worse than a partial tear of the patellar tendon on my left knee (which healed by itself without surgery), I wear a McDavid neoprene brace with metal side supports on each knee. I can't feel it when I am wearing them skiing(or for basketball) and I have it on authority from my doctor that it helps to stabilize the knee. To what extent may be debatable, but given that I don't know they are there and performance is not affected, any improvement is positive and worth the relatively small monetary cost.
Sep 21 2007 7:24PM
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drewishish
Posts: 3710 - Karma: 23
i was thinking about getting some cheap-er ones. even if its not 100% affective, its better than nothing. and even thinking its making things better might actaully help.
Sep 21 2007 7:32PM
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skiEER
Posts: 4089 - Karma: 79
Insurance is not goign tot pay for preventitve knee braces
Sep 21 2007 7:54PM
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gaydar
Posts: 543 - Karma: 5
so true and so sad. and if used enough the restricted movement will weaken your knee in key muscle groups around the ligament. want to prevent knee injuries? strengthen your knees alot, get flexible, and really work speed out on jumps before trying tricks.


that or go to university and design one that works, ill give you everything i own.
Sep 21 2007 9:13PM
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R.Fahey
Posts: 8602 - Karma: 539
Don't do it. Even those stupid little ACE ones. They just make your legs dependent. Just go to the gym, and build some muscle, and do it naturally. Those things are just for peace of mind.
Sep 21 2007 9:40PM
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poofartpee
Posts: 7436 - Karma: 1,537
I think its a possiblt idea in preventing injury, but u will also be hinging the strength in ur knees in away u know? if u started wearing a brace all the time ur body would reliy on it making it mentaly hard to do anything without it and physicaly hard due to ur body not strengthining in ur knees cause they have support...its really a hard decision but I think it comes down to if u have the dissposible incom, and if ur willing to comit to it

Ive torn my ACL and both meniscuses and I will be using my brace for every sport I do that involves pivoting for a year but then I will plan on wheening of of using it
Sep 21 2007 11:28PM
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EVAN.F
Posts: 895 - Karma: 2,820
so what are other techniques and stuff besides like strecthing while on the slopes you can do to prevent injury?
Sep 21 2007 11:47PM
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OCHO
Posts: 319 - Karma: 732
get the asterisk braces. there the shit. i will never ski without them again. its the best preventative knee brace out there. and there only $800 for a pair unlike a single don-joy for almost $1000. you wont be dissapointed
Sep 22 2007 12:43AM
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(Jonesy)
Posts: 2594 - Karma: 20
thank god i didn't have to be the first one to say this! the cell asterisk bracer is the most amazing thing ever.
Sep 22 2007 5:37AM
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R.Fahey
Posts: 8602 - Karma: 539
Um, riding a bike everywhere you go, going to the gym at least 3 times a week and putting muscle around your knees, quads, hamstrings, glutes, etc. Doing core exercises so you're not a bitch. It's not that hard.... do it.
Sep 22 2007 5:43AM
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AhrenStein
Posts: 1941 - Karma: 177
don joys are like 250-300 buddy. good try
Sep 22 2007 10:18AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Build solid leg muscles equally on all muscles of the leg. That will be your best bet in preventing any sort of leg injury.
Sep 22 2007 10:30AM
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bigsoxfan
Posts: 734 - Karma: 10
i wear a brace when i play soccer after tearing my ACL last fall and i just feel safer with it and plan on skiing with it this winter, basically its personal preference and as of right now mine feels good with it so im gunna wear it, if it feels strong enough without it dont bother
Sep 22 2007 5:30PM
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meggles
Posts: 3156 - Karma: 54

ive worn a cti since i tore mine a year and a half ago..definitely makes me feel better about my knee, i dont even notice its there.

Sep 22 2007 5:46PM
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Edward.
Posts: 9366 - Karma: 445
i tore mine and got my reconstruction in late april. im probably going to wear my knee brace for the first couple weeks or maybe even the whole first month
Sep 22 2007 6:08PM
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bigwhite.steeze
Posts: 8227 - Karma: 1,030
its not inevitable...both my parents are serious skiers and skied since they were 3 and were cat/heli ski guides never had to have knee surgery yet...
Sep 22 2007 7:26PM
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quattro179
Posts: 464 - Karma: 54
I just were a neoprene one on each knee. They are cheap and I think it adds a little stability. It also keeps your knees warm so they work better. Thats just my opinion tho..
Sep 22 2007 9:02PM
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heavywinter
Posts: 229 - Karma: 224
There will be a new binding company launching a patented product that is proven to decrease the chance of blown knees. And I'm not talking about Line. This is legit (not that line wasn't, but this is a much better design). It will be hitting the market in the 2008-2009 year. Designed and patented by a guy who has spent many years in the ski binding biz.

I'd avoid knee braces. Do some pre-season training, as many have pointed out.
Sep 23 2007 12:49AM
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kristie
Posts: 1667 - Karma: 214
I don't know but if I re-blow my knee while wearing my custom Donjoy brace, Donjoy pays for the surgery.  They say it helps. 
Sep 23 2007 1:28AM
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meggles
Posts: 3156 - Karma: 54
oh shit, i need that hah
Sep 23 2007 2:31AM
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OCHO
Posts: 319 - Karma: 732
yeah with your insurance. but give them both a try and you'll see the difference. either way it will help if you've had an injury.
Sep 23 2007 3:07AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
A brace only helps to stabilize a knee that is unstable to start with, it will not prevent a tear from happening on a healthy knee.
Sep 24 2007 11:17AM
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jwhyte
Posts: 596 - Karma: 21
I partialy tore my acl at the us open and got a brace and never looked back. im thinking about one for my left knee also.. can i borrow $1200?
Sep 24 2007 11:47AM
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Armanzoid
Posts: 2453 - Karma: 26
You have to think, logically the forces involved in skiing would easily overwhelm a brace if you really did something that would fuck your knee up. Esspically if you are bigger because now on top of the speed of skiing, you have your weight and momentum behind it.

Work out, get killer legs, there you go, free knee brace. People neglect their legs a lot when they work out, hence why they get so many leg injuries.
Sep 24 2007 12:39PM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
Your next knee surgery will only cost $1000? Who's your surgeon?
Sep 24 2007 12:45PM
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ESAND
Posts: 1607 - Karma: 744
lol
Sep 24 2007 5:57PM
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powderski14
Posts: 142 - Karma: 10
i hear ya
Sep 24 2007 8:03PM
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nosnowsnakes
Posts: 301 - Karma: 133
Preventative knee braces are for preventing a second injury to a knee that has already been hurt. Not for preventing injury to healthy knees.


The best thing you can do to prevent hurting your knees is to work out your legs (especially the quads and hamstrings) and stretch.
Sep 25 2007 1:12AM
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jergriff
Posts: 440 - Karma: 9

i got the same deal... i might as well use the DonJoy it not gunna hurt any...

Sep 25 2007 2:22AM
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eheath
Posts: 61102 - Karma: 118,261
Thank god i got a free one after my surgery, i love it. and i KNOW it helps my knee. I cases without it and it fucking hurts to bad, i cant just feel my meniscus grinding. But with my brace, it def helps.
Sep 25 2007 2:27AM
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jergriff
Posts: 440 - Karma: 9
ya i got the DonJoy after my surg.... i  like it, it seems like it will just make me think about have a hurt knee more... im only about five months out of having my surgery and hella scared to start skiing this season hahah oh well...
Sep 25 2007 2:36AM
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eheath
Posts: 61102 - Karma: 118,261
Don't worry about it, i was skiing with a brace at 4 months, just do your PT and keep strong and you'll be legit.
Sep 25 2007 2:37AM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
http://www.donjoy.com/index.asp/fuseaction/patients.kneeguarantee

I don't understand how Donjoy's offering a refund of about the purchase price of the brace amounts to "paying for the surgery."

And read clinical studies. The only time that a knee brace significantly stabilizes the knee is when the knee is in a stationary, partially flexed, weight-bearing position (i.e. a position of standing perfectly still, facing straight forward), subject to unilateral stress. Moreover, studies have been conducted that conclusively show that knee braces are ineffective under athletic conditions (i.e. any condition under which you'd hope for your brace to help you).

You might say: "but if that's true, why does DonJoy have enough confidence in their product to offer to pay for your surgery if you get hurt again?" The answer is that they don't. They have confidence in knee injury statistics and an elementary understanding of expectation. Note that they are not paying for surgery, they are giving a refund ($1000) in the case that the ACL is re-injured within 12 months of the purchase (which is a maximum of 18 months from the original surgery, per terms and conditions).

In the unusual event that they "pay for surgery," all they're doing is giving back money that they received from you (or your insurance company) in the first place. You have to ship the brace back to them, and they can reuse its components. Thus, their net loss on "paying for somebody's surgery" is zero. Moreover, the net effect on the brace user is zero: you (or your insurance, but much more likely you) paid ~$1000 for a piece of garbage to attach to your leg. And you got $1000 back. -$1000 + $1000 = DonJoy didn't pay for a fucking dime of your surgery.

Anyway, DonJoy knows that by offering this guarantee, they're not paying for shit, and they're not losing any money when the brace "fails" (as if it was meant/believed to do anything in the first place). But thanks to years of knee-injury research, they have a very good idea of how many braces they can expect to give refunds for. This is just figured into DonJoy's marketing budget. And, given how minimal the actual loss is (if it even is a loss at all, I think that the retail price of a Defiance brace is $1200), they can sustain it many more times than expected and still consider it to be driving profits (because it gets more idiots to buy the brace than would without the "gurantee"), rather than diminishing them.

DonJoy won't pay for your surgery. And the Knee Guarantee is not a guarantee, it's a gimmick. When you're on your way home from picking up your knee brace, remember to renew the extended warranties for your car and all your electronics. If your car breaks down, or your iPod shorts out, they'll buy you a new one1.

1. Subject to terms and conditions*.

*HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA .
Sep 25 2007 1:23PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Dawt.
Sep 25 2007 1:30PM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
What does "Dawt" mean?
Sep 25 2007 1:33PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
"Dawt" means ".", which in turn means, "right on" and it also relists the post content to make sure everyone reads it because it is the spot on truth.
Sep 25 2007 1:59PM
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tori
Posts: 504 - Karma: 13
Damn Simms, why so anti?

True, they will do nothing to prevent acl tear in a high speed fall. But if your wearing one, its probably because you've had surgery on an injured knee, and the brace is there to 'support' the injured/compromised knee.

Quick answer is No , they wont prevent the big ligament tears and dont really have any place on a healthy knee.

Wearing one is purely a personal preference, and if you ask most skiers that ski in a brace they wouldn't ski without it. Its the mental security of that extra bit of stability, or just having something there. The mental aspect is not to be dismissed, and no-one should be made to feel like a pussy for wearing one.

Sep 26 2007 3:53AM
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t_walker
Posts: 934 - Karma: 37
the only preventitive measure you can take is to have strong muscles around your knee. go to the gym and shit. I've had a pretty intensive surgery and found skiing with the brace to be too constricting in motion so i've strengthened my knees and they are both 110% The muscles in your knee are what hold everything in place.
Sep 26 2007 8:43AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
I don't think anyone is calling someone a pussy for using a knee brace, it's moreso the fact that under 99% of the circumstances, they will not prevent injury to a full ability knee that is in correct working order.
Sep 26 2007 11:39AM
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Literature
Posts: 13673 - Karma: 3,086
I use neoprene ones most of the time, and my knees hurt less at the end of the day when I do.

With that said, you definitely can become dependent on them.
Sep 26 2007 1:52PM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
I didn't call anybody a pussy. I've had knee surgery. I don't wear one. It's not because I'm tough that I don't wear one. The reason I don't wear one is that my surgeon, two of his colleagues, and my physical therapist all told me that there was no benefit to wearing one. They went on to say that any "psychological benefit" derived from wearing the brace would actually be a drawback, because it would turn me into a person who needed to attach a silly contraption to his perfectly healthy leg in order to feel comfortable. Where's the benefit in that?

A successful ligament replacement, followed by proper physical therapy restores the knee to a completely healthy state. So if a person doesn't need a brace before an injury, then why would a person suddenly need a brace after being restored to the same healthy state? If it is a case where somebody is using the brace to get back onto snow earlier than he or she otherwise would, then that person simply is not yet ready to be skiing. If somebody's leg's not ready, attaching a brace won't make it any more ready. Though it may cause injury by giving that person by giving him or her too much confidence for his or her healing leg to bear. In this case, the proper way to treat your body is not to ski in a brace, but to wait until you are ready to ski without the brace. Because like I just said, if you're not ready to ski without a brace, you're not ready to ski at all, and it is irresponsible and dangerous to do so.

So anyway. I'm not calling anybody a pussy. I was very cautious about my knee. And I made the most timid return to skiing after surgery of anybody I know. So in that respect, I am a pussy, if anybody is. But I'm not trying to label anybody a pussy. I'm just saying that a knee brace is an utterly nonessential part of knee rehabilitation/care for our sport. And that, given that there is no real benefit to wearing one, the only possibilities are that a brace will have zero effect, or a harmful effect. As such, I'm very against the use of knee braces. Using one doesn't make you a pussy, but it's the wrong thing to do for your body.
Sep 26 2007 6:44PM
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pbandj
Posts: 5610 - Karma: 28
^ i don't fully agree with that statement due to the fact my acl was only partially torn so it got sewn back together, and it will never be 100% back to where it was before injury, but i fucked up because it was senior year of high school and i was damned and determined to finish the season, so cortizone shots were given once a week for 4 weeks until the season ended, in retrospect i shoulda just gotten it taken care of, but i can't run like i used to, skiing hurts after a full day but a nights rest takes care of that, but i realize a brace isn't going to do SHIT for me, luckily i have good health insurance, and btw my surgery was almost about 2 and a half years ago, and i performed all of the proper pt and etc, and i still work out my legs like a mad man to build muscle to support my knee cap
Sep 26 2007 7:37PM
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davar6
Posts: 555 - Karma: 24
haha great website^^
Sep 26 2007 8:24PM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
What I referred to in my post was ACL replacement surgery. You did not have ACL replacement surgery. Your experience is a bummer. But it's irrelevant to my post. I'm confused as to why/how it prompts you to disagree with my assertion about ACL replacement surgery.

In addition, I'm bummed for you, that you found a surgeon willing to perform the procedure that you underwent.
Sep 26 2007 11:02PM
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